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October 31, 2009

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dacian

"The end-game is unlikely to be pretty."

Any timing for that sir? thanks

Cdn Trader

You did not mentioned the role of CMHC. Apparently it has ramped up mortgage insurance in the past 2 years, plus it now buys large amounts of securitised product from the banks. The banks have neither the credit risk nor the liquidity risk from issuing more mortgages. So of course they will lend more. Is CMHC Canada's Fannie Mae?

psychodave

"So of course they will lend more"
Yes (chuckles) they're insured against loss!

"Is CMHC Canada's Fannie Mae?"
I like that question. Suspect it's closer to FHA tho'.

Linked Dobbins article stated "At the peak of the U.S. housing bubble, just before it burst, house prices were five times the average American income; in Canada today that ratio is 7.4:1"
Looks like they're in the big time, especially with lower money down.

Look forward to hearing more from those who, unlike me, are better informed.

Toro

Dacian

These things usually end when interest rates start rising. Don't know if it will be the case this time, but that is what I'd be watching most closely.

T.

brian

I live in the US, but am planning on retiring and sinking most of my net worth into buying a farm in Nova Scotia in the next 2-3 years. NS isn't in a bubble is it???

I don't know about the rest of Canada, but NS farm property seems pretty cheap relative to US anyway.

Toro

Brian

Here is a link to Farm Credit Canada.

http://www.fcc-fac.ca/en/Products/Property/FLV/Spring2009/index.asp#nationaltrend

This site will be able to tell you about farm prices.

T.

RunningAmokInFantasyland

@Toro,psychodave, et al.

"The Fed will fight deflation tooth and nail. But they don't have to buy government debt to fight deflation. They can buy mortgage securities, credit card securities, commercial paper, etc. That will have the effect of easing without encouraging the government to run massive deficits.

"And such debts are naturally self liquidating, while government debt is not, at least not in the same way."

--John Mauldin in his latest eletter, "Catching Argentinian Disease."

In typical Mauldin fashion, he ignores the import of his own words and begins speechifying about the independence of the Fed.

T, pdave, et al at this site, any insights? There is something key here I cannot get at.

brian

great! thanks for the link. also, your comments are thought-provoking, and I love the canadian slant, thanks for taking the time...

psychodave

@r.amok
Reinhart & Rogoff is essential reading:
the link:
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/rogoff/files/Is_The_US_Subprime_Crisis_So_Different.pdf

While refusing to admit you could miss anything, I offer:
1) As asset values decline, value of available collateral for loans declines, so credit contracts ... exponentially. Then nobody has any money, society tends towards barter system, losing the links to other regions, thus losing the advantage of specialization of labor/resources.

This is why they fear deflation.

The Fed isn't trying to inflate asset prices, particularly residential real estate. Leave that to Congress. The Fed is supplying enough methadone to mitigate the inevitable decline.

I'll stop here. As you pointed out, only empty speculation could explain "naturally self liquidating" private sector/consumer debt versus "not in the same way" government debt.

Only difference I can tell is that U.S. government only tacitly defaults, via inflation. U.S. consumers provide hard physical direct default.

Argentina borrowed in other currencies, like Asia in the 1990s. Asia doesn't do that anymore. Neither should Argentina. The U.S. hasn't had to ... so far.

Toro

I just bought Rogoff's new book on the subject.

psychodave

"I just bought Rogoff's new book on the subject."

1) I'm too demanding. I not only want you to share, like you used to do in your previous book reviews, I also want multiple appearances by Italicized Ed

2) Please trouble to take a look at article in WSJ entitled

"Crisis Compels Economists To Reach for New Paradigm"

I like a lot what John Geanakoplos of Yale University has to say.

dacian

Guys,

In a previous article T posted on Einhorn, one can read in that pdf (Einhorn's speech) he's shorting Japan long-term maturity bonds (or buying put options, something like that). I saw some bright people out there calling for Japan as being beyond the point of no return (it will default on its sovereign debt sometime in the next decade). It looks to me that one can protect against that in 2 ways: either by shorting the yen or shorting LT japanese bonds. Now the yen is very volatile (like all currencies lately), but I want to ask is there a vehicle available to retail people like me for shorting the japanese bonds (the equivalent of TBT for tresuries)? I can't find anything, has any of you knowledge of an instrument for that?

thanks

psychodave

I dunno dacian.

1) Japan keeps saving and aging population maintains savings by living off investment income only would mean Japan can keep rolling over its debt.

2) If DPJ party successfully provokes consumption it would mean economic growth (finally!) for Japan. Gov't bond yields could go up in response, but it's a long dark tunnel from 5% yield [Einhorn p.7] to government default or hyperinflationary spiral. What happens if you don't reach the end? I'd anticipate Jap.Gov't starts paying down debt due to increase in revenues.

3) Even if you're correct, why not, instead of some fool ETF, buy "long-dated options on higher Japanese interest rates" as Einhorn says he's doing [p.9]? Even Toro uses options, not ETFs, to take his glod[sic] position.

best,
p.dave

dacian

Dave,

I understand what u're saying; but it seems that govt. debt was supported by the savings of the population over there; as they will start to consume those savings (no incomes due to continued weak growth) it will be difficult for them to issue new debt.

I think the US is on the same path (people starting to save) and those savings will support US treasuries from now on (for some time).

I was asking for an ETF because it's a very stupid vehicle I can understand; I don't know much about derivatives (options on higher interest rates).

psychodave

"as they will start to consume those savings (no incomes due to continued weak growth)"
I thought, being Japanese, they intended to live on the low interest and not touch the principal.

After all, they've got life insurance & death cost assistance insurance from AIG ... [/ducks]

RunningAmokInFantasyland

@psycodave

Being a realist by nature but always striving to achieve a state of optimism however temporary, I keep poking about for a way the smart guys are going to get us out of this mess that has been overlooked.

Your comments on debt, a subject I am weak on, have been very incisive so I am gratified you are puzzled by that "self-liquidating" remark of Mauldin.

Jim Grant said 11/2 (Investment Postcards From Capetown) that he expected the economic recovery to be stronger than anyone expects. Jim Grant! He quotes the same Famous Dead Economist as ECRI re cycles of excessive pessimism.

Thanks for R&R link.

psychodave

@r.amok

1) "Jim Grant said . . . that he expected the economic recovery to be stronger than anyone expects"
Please help me with one simple, but not easy, question. Have current S&P 500 levels already priced in this surprise growth or not? I tip liberally at restaurants, and hand the better half the checkbook without qualm, but I hate paying too much for any financial asset.

2) "I keep poking about for a way the smart guys are going to get us out of this mess"

You have a healthier mental attitude than I.

I keep poking about for the next way the smart guys are gonna do me in.

Just where did ya'll think the "psycho" part of the handle comes from, anyway?

RunningAmokInFantasyland

@pyschodave

1. When did markets accurately price in anything except for a few transitory moments in the flow of financial spacetime, a.k.a., the bar chart?

2. My realist side is akin to your paranoid view. Now and then I entertain delusions of optimism. But, like Dexter, I know there will be blood.

Keep eyes on crab legs and those who love them.

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